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Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.02 23:14:00 - [1] Well...I've used Both Torp CNRs and Torp Golems. Torp Golem is way better, mainly because of that Painter Bonus. You deal almost full damage to most ships. Practically one volleying BCs and few cruisers is Pimp! That spare mid is perfect for second Painter, and if setup with dual Pithi Small Boosters can use 4 BCUs in the lows. Nothing else real useful to stick there since you can pretty much tank every mission...And you have the huge cargo bay, no need for booster charges, and 3 free high slots and fitting for anything you want. (tractor and salvager plus whatever else) What else is that target painter bonus for?
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.03 02:05:00 - [2] Edited by: Karrade Krise on 03/02/2009 02:11:09 Edited by: Karrade Krise on 03/02/2009 02:09:07 Originally by: Terminus Vindictus IMO your comparison is faulty to begin with. If you want to compare realistic builds, and not just paper builds, you'd have to compare a CN cruise CNR against a T2 Javelin torp Golem, similarly equipped. A torp CNR, just as a Rage torp Golem, are situational at best in missions because of the severe range limitations for torps. Likewise, a cruise Golem would be ghimped in terms of DPS because of defenders. So in that case: CN cruise CNR = 738 DPS / 4594 volley T2 Javelin Golem = 882 DPS / 6163 volley This is a more realistic comparison of the two ships as they would be actually used in L4's. Situational at best...wtf? Severe range limitations?? 60km Torps...Severe...right... It's a fair argument to me. Isk and Skill Time are in CNR's favor. Golem is better, but it's a matter of isk and time. Oh and BTW I use a Torp CNR. NEVER had a problem with it. What exactly qualifies as a "real" build to you? I'm dying to know...because obviously if you say my build isn't good enough then it must be so... Hang on, let me throw out my CNR setup for ya... Lows 3xDomination BCU 1xBCUII 1xDCUII Mids 2xPithi B Type Small Shield Booster 1xShield Boost Amp 2xRat Spec Hardeners 1xPWNGE Target Painter Highs 7xSiege Launcher II 1xTractor Beam Rigs Rocket Fuel Cache Hydraulic Bay Thruster CCC Javelin CNR = 918 DPS / 5066 volley Javelin Golem = 882 DPS / 6163 volley In closing... Cruise Raven<Cruise CNR<Torp CNR<Torp Golem (Torp Golem wins out due to it's Painting and Tanking Bonuses as well as able to tractor beam, salvage, and remote rep a passive drone for extra tank if needed) CCP Atlas - The Short Story - "With Quantum Rise, we kind of messed up the performance of the EVE client."
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.03 02:42:00 - [3] Edited by: Karrade Krise on 03/02/2009 02:42:18 Originally by: Graalum there is a whole lot of terrible going on in this thread. I'm not included in this "terrible" am I? Originally by: Crusty Mustaddddd Good god, the first working torp CNR fit I've seen thus far. Then a little of my logic is flawed. I'm a little curious to know how tight your fit is? I also would thank you for posting something rather than ignoring the facts, ignoring the thread, or whining about your CNR, or just posting something totally irrelevant. VERY tight fit. Requires max fitting skills and Launcher Rigging to 5, however if the BCUII is dropped and replaced with a Domi BCU then it fits perfectly with Launcher rigging 4. Also, that tank is somewhere in the 100mil area. So it's cheap enough to afford. If you can afford 250mil for a CNR, then you should def be able to afford the tank :P Golem is still better in my eyes though. CNR is more like a stepping stone between the Raven and Golem.
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.03 03:06:00 - [4] Originally by: Terminus Vindictus Edited by: Terminus Vindictus on 03/02/2009 02:58:35 Originally by: Karrade Krise EDIT Why would you use Rage torps? They have horrible Explosion radius. Jav>Faction>T1>Rage (only because most NPCs will be less than 550m in sig radius) Rage is meant for PVP Rigged BS bashing tbh. Why are you aiming your argument at me? The whole point of my post was that the OP was using Rage torps in his comparison, which is unrealistic for L4's, which is exactly what you're saying above... So, yes, the range limitations using Rage torps ARE severe for missions. Originally by: Crusty Mustaddddd CNR with 7 x Cruise Launcher II's and T2 Fury missiles = 407 dps. Golem with 4 x Cruise Launcher II's and T2 Fury missiles = 349 dps. CNR with 7 x Siege Launcher II's and T2 Rage torps = 746 dps. Golem with 4 x Siege Launcher II's and T2 Rage torps = 639 dps. I stand by what I wrote. When I mentioned the Rage, I wasn't directing it at you or anyone in particular, just stating that rage are practically worthless in PVE. When you mentioned gimped range, I was thinking you meant Torps in general :P My bad, heh heh. Originally by: Term CN cruise CNR = 738 DPS / 4594 volley T2 Javelin Golem = 882 DPS / 6163 volley This is a more realistic comparison of the two ships as they would be actually used in L4's. This is my argument with you "Realistic comparison" would be Torp CNR vs Torp Golem. With proper fittings of course. Nothing personal, just a simple disagreement
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.03 03:14:00 - [5] Originally by: Crusty Mustaddddd Even with the long range equiv's the dps difference would have been about the same, I think. Yea...there's a huge difference between EFT/Paper DPS than True DPS. As you said before, that Painting bonus more than makes up the difference. Only few advantages the CNR has over Golem are 1.Cheaper 2.Less Skill Intensive 3.More DPS (on paper-if that even counts) If fitted with dual Pithi B Small setup, you can stick 2 painters on there...that's equal to 4 painters on a CNR, which at most you can fit is 1 without gimping your tank. 4 to 1... That's the difference that makes the Golem do a lot more true damage than the CNR. CCP Atlas - The Short Story - "With Quantum Rise, we kind of messed up the performance of the EVE client."
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.03 03:26:00 - [6] Originally by: Crusty Mustaddddd Originally by: Karrade Krise Originally by: Crusty Mustaddddd Even with the long range equiv's the dps difference would have been about the same, I think. Yea...there's a huge difference between EFT/Paper DPS than True DPS. As you said before, that Painting bonus more than makes up the difference. Only few advantages the CNR has over Golem are 1.Cheaper 2.Less Skill Intensive 3.More DPS (on paper-if that even counts) If fitted with dual Pithi B Small setup, you can stick 2 painters on there...that's equal to 4 painters on a CNR, which at most you can fit is 1 without gimping your tank. 4 to 1... That's the difference that makes the Golem do a lot more true damage than the CNR. Lol, exactly what I have been trying to say. I'm surprised that you are agreeing. I'm less surprised that others are severely off topic. lol You should get your friend to go onto SiSi and test your setups against each other.
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.03 03:38:00 - [7] Edited by: Karrade Krise on 03/02/2009 03:38:19 Originally by: Cors Easy answer to the Golem VS CNR. Golem = slightly lower DPS, loot/salvage/cargo hold. CNR= Slightly better DPS, no looting/salaveing. If you want to blitz missions, CNR. If you want to Finish the mission and loot and salvage, then the golem. It's that simple. You're forgetting Golems Target Painting Bonus. Golem properly fit with 2 Painters has a 4 to 1 advantage on painting for "True DPS" over CNR. Which means golem is still better for Blitzing CCP Atlas - The Short Story - "With Quantum Rise, we kind of messed up the performance of the EVE client."
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.03 03:53:00 - [8] Originally by: Cors Originally by: Karrade Krise Edited by: Karrade Krise on 03/02/2009 03:38:19 Originally by: Cors Easy answer to the Golem VS CNR. Golem = slightly lower DPS, loot/salvage/cargo hold. CNR= Slightly better DPS, no looting/salaveing. If you want to blitz missions, CNR. If you want to Finish the mission and loot and salvage, then the golem. It's that simple. You're forgetting Golems Target Painting Bonus. Golem properly fit with 2 Painters has a 4 to 1 advantage on painting for "True DPS" over CNR. Which means golem is still better for Blitzing And WHY are you useing your Cruise's on anything with a sig below 200? Drones should be takeing out anything that small. You should NEVER be useing your main weapons on anything smaller then a BC. If you are then you're ignoreing 1/3 of your damage potential. Cruise/torps for BS/BC leave the Frigs/Cruisers to your Drones. ...I don't use cruise...Also...The only ship that drones kill faster than my torp/painter combo are elite frigs, and some of the faster frigs...Torps go through NPCs so quick that my drones wont have all the small ones killed before I run out of big targets most times... So duh, use main weapons on large targets until you run out of large targets and work your way down. What then? Just don't fire any more of your main weapon? Let your drones take longer to kill the small stuff? When you have only small stuff to shoot at...do you just wait the extra bit of time for drones to finish them off and don't bother adding your main dps to it? I fully understand where you're coming from...But I really don't see why/where you pulled this out of thin air. is slightly confused where this came from CCP Atlas - The Short Story - "With Quantum Rise, we kind of messed up the performance of the EVE client."
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.03 04:00:00 - [9] Originally by: Cors And WHY are you useing your Cruise's on anything with a sig below 200? Drones should be takeing out anything that small. You should NEVER be useing your main weapons on anything smaller then a BC. If you are then you're ignoreing 1/3 of your damage potential. Cruise/torps for BS/BC leave the Frigs/Cruisers to your Drones. And again, why would you fit 2 target painters? Again, your drones attack the small stuff, your mids are for tanking. In the time it would take Torps/Cruises to kill a frig, my drones can kill 4 frigs, even with 2 target painters. Use Cruise missles. You can start attacking the second you land, you don't have to get close enough to use torps, you can hit anything BC and up for full damage, your drones take care of the Frigs/Cruisers. Less "DPS" but it KILLS faster in missions. NPC is at 100km(Like they are in quite a few missions) you start killing from the second you get in. Not waiting a minute to get close enough to hit them. Not going to bother to edit my previous post... Top half answered kinda in above post. 2 Target Painters...because the Golem has all the tank it needs to do ALL lvl4 missions, double the painter, increase the damage GREATLY, to ALL ships. Not all NPCs have 450 size sig radius to match Torps you know... You're right, some missions have NPCs at 100km. Whoopty friggin' do. I'll just agro them soon as I come in, and they close the distance as I kill everything else close to me. If it's a mission with the majority of the NPCs at 100km then I'll consider running cruise missiles. Do me a favor. Read through the first page on everything I said. Just humor me...maybe if you're not as arrogant and as stubborn as you seem then maybe you'll learn something. CCP Atlas - The Short Story - "With Quantum Rise, we kind of messed up the performance of the EVE client."
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.03 04:05:00 - [10] Edited by: Karrade Krise on 03/02/2009 04:05:45 Originally by: Cors Originally by: Enst Cytodee Edited by: Enst Cytodee on 03/02/2009 03:52:56 Lol, Cors, have you ever used a Golem? LOL yup. Bought one the first week it was out. I also have Marauder to 5, Cruise/Torp to 5, All Drone skills to 5. I've tried all combinations of raven/CNR/Golem setups over the years. I've ran thousands of missions over 3 char's, and I always fall back to the Cruise Missle, Heavy tank Mids, SMC Rigs, and 5 T2 Damage specific Drones. Sure Torps are nice for the missions where everything is on top of you, but for the misssions where NPC's start out at 50KM+, the Cruise setup always kills em faster. I've timed the missions, experienced the tanks(Lack of tanks) of most of the common setups. And I've always fallen back on the Cruise setup as the fastest overall mission setup. Some have more DPS, some have better tanks, some kill frigs faster, some kill BS's faster, but the fastest overall setup as in Time spent in mission killing/looting/salvageing in a Cruise/T2 Medium Drones. Ok, that's all understandable. (However with max skills proper rigs torps go 60km) I still feel kinda dumbfounded when with what you originally wrote that it just seemed you thought for some weird odd reason I was using Cruises on Frigs... To each his own. CCP Atlas - The Short Story - "With Quantum Rise, we kind of messed up the performance of the EVE client."
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.03 05:04:00 - [11] Originally by: Mr Krosis I switched from a cruise CNR to a torp golem about a month ago, and while it does have it's good sides I think it is a bit over hyped as the end all mission running champ. While the dps on paper looks better, I find it much more frustrating to use. The range is an issue, and anyone quoting 40 or 60 km range is either using tech 2 rigs or is just using eft. I can start hitting things at about 38km and can reliably hit anything within 35km. Yeah javs can go out to about 55km but repeatedly switching ammo at 10-15 seconds per reload quickly cuts into your real-world dps on top of the reduced damage from javelins. And yes, I do have all relevent missile skills to 5 except warhead upgrades (about 1% damage) and torpedo spec. The range problem isn't so much about things orbiting too far, but rats that start or spawn far away. Go run an angel/guristas extravaganza and see how many rats spawn inside 35km - not many. Getting into range of those that spawn out at 70-100km isn't normally a problem unless all rats are that distance away, agro one, let them come to you while you kill the closer ones. Also, switching ammo diminishes your dps a good bit, I never bother switching ammo, just use Javs straight up unless a certain rat I know will have one of those huge rep tanks.
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:42:00 - [12] Originally by: Mr Krosis Perhaps someone could enlighten me if I'm using a poor setup as well. Highs: 4x T2 Siege Launchers, 3 tractor beams Mids: XL Booster, Afterburner, 3x Invul, 2x Target Painter Lows: 3x BCS, Damage Control Rigs: 1x Bay Thruster, 1x Fuel Cache (Tech I) While I know there are some variations in setups people use, I can't see anything I could change that would address any of the problems I have with the ship. My CNR setup is very similar, but subtract the afterburner and a target painter, add a boost amplifier and a PDS. Rigs.. have changed but are usually some combination of missile rigs that ensure I can 1 volley cruisers. You can also use rigs to negate the threat of defenders against cruise missiles if you are so inclined. Doesn't look like it would cap stable. With a setup like that I'd actually use 3 rat spec hardeners instead of invul fields. Gives you a much better tank when you know the damage type of the rats. CCP Atlas - The Short Story - "With Quantum Rise, we kind of messed up the performance of the EVE client."
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.03 19:03:00 - [13] Edited by: Karrade Krise on 03/02/2009 19:03:54 Originally by: F90OEX EFT only tells you half of the story.... CNR > Gank Golem > Tank You're forgetting the untold story of Signature Radius and Golems Painter Bonus... Originally by: Misanth Edited by: Misanth on 03/02/2009 18:43:17 Soo.. how about that Golem range? Just curious, I saw most arguments I expected in the OP's post but I missed that one. Some missions have regular BS that orbits at 50km+ and spawn at up to 135km off, usually you want ("need") a 90km+ lock. A torp Golem would need an AB for those missions, and.. can it still go against those BS that orbits at 50-60km?[/Misanth] Javelins with max skills and 2 rigs go ~60km
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.03 19:38:00 - [14] Originally by: Gul Rashen Most ppl flying a Golem has made many missions before in their CNRs and know about the differences but i think most of the ppl who talk against the Golem never had one. It's the same with the Torp/Cruise discussion. The Torp-users love them and the Cruise-users never tried them Or the cruise users tried the Torps once, but didn't bother fitting any painters or had crap support skills, or couldn't use t2
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.05 00:08:00 - [15] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Use a Nighthawk: 6x CN HML 3x LSE II 2x hardeners II 2x PDU II 3x BCU II 2x CDFP II 450ish DPS with some 3% implants and lvl 5 in relevant skills. can passive tank any mission you don't screw up aggro. Thread is titled CNR vs Golem is it not?
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.08 17:49:00 - [16] Originally by: namelessclone01 Edited by: namelessclone01 on 07/02/2009 22:59:31 Originally by: namelessclone01 + a viable tank for any lvl4 Originally by: Solid Prefekt You mind sharing your 'viable' tank for any lvl 4? Originally by: Kaivos Idd like to see this viable tank too. It has to be full crystal set + super expensive mods. Originally by: Yakkha How convenient, are you expecting us to come up with that magic tank for you? namelessclone01 does some black magic Power Diagnostic System II Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Medium Capacitor Booster II,Cap Booster 800 414 dps tank again.. "All level V" profile, no implants if you feel that it's not a viable tank for any lvl4, you might need to rethink your missioning tactics. falling asleep with a full-stage aggro is not a good tactics, and never was. Originally by: Kaivos Even after that I dont think I would call it a comfortable tank. I don't like to run missions with a constant sweat on my forehead. Some level of insurance is needed that my tank will hold in most situations. ok, let's say it clearly now: Golem is for pilots who are even lazier than CNR pilots. and for pilots who feel insecure about their tanks. i agree. Pricey setup there...Since I fly Golems I suppose that means I'm too lazy to add anything else constructive to this post.
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.09 16:43:00 - [17] Originally by: Carniflex Went quikly over op's first post, have not read rest of the thread other than skimming over it. Those links might give you more or less overview what has been already discussed about CNR vs Golem and related issues to draw your own conclusions if this or that is comatible with your playstyle. Yea, pretty much everything relevant in those threads has been mentioned here. It's a redundant topic really.

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